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Help tweak my square filing

Nuzzy

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Alright, what am I missing... So, I've read all the threads I could, watched the vids I could, and read through all Madsen's literature on this. So here's what I got...

[Using double bevel chisel file]


Suggested angles from Madsen's:




I understand the side of the cutter does the brunt of work, so I start with the Inside Side Plate and go for 45°





Then I line up the small part of the file so my Outside Side Plate is 85-90°. Now Madsen's says the Inside Top Plate should be 40-50°, but that angle seems to me to be a function of the Outside Side Plate angle and it's relationship with the physical file. In other words, if I rotate the file to give a more blunt Inside Top Plate angle, my side plate will change... That said, with the 85-90 side plate, I do feel the top is roughly where it should be.




I aim the file (as I've read) so that I'm just touching the tie strap





So, now I'm in a locked position. I've set the file in three axis: 1) 45° to the bar when looking from above for my Inside Side angle; 2) angled downward so my file corner lines up with the outside corner of the cutter and down to grazing the tie strap; and 3) rotated so the Outside Side plate gets its 85-90°. Now what does this leave me...

An Outside Top Plate angle close to 30-35°, which is certainly not the 15-20° I've read about.







I've been looking at this, trying to figure out how to change things so that top plate angle will lesson, but the only way I can think of involves changing the 45° of the inside side plate.


:retarded: :notsure:
 

Nuzzy

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And yes, I'll be cleaning the gullets again. I had them all round filed up to the cutting edges, but this chain got hit pretty hard and that material is how much filing it took to get the corner back to a point. :wtf:
 

ft. churchill

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I'll look at mine tomorrow and write ya back. Mine too have the nicks on the tie straps, I'm just thinkin' that the nicks on my chains are further up the chain and closer to the gullet instead of so far back. My chains are being run in very sandy country that has high winds. The bark of the pinyon pines has a lot of grit in it, and yet I'm getting good life between resharpening touch-ups. They last as long as my regular round filed chains.
 

mdavlee

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Nothing wrong with that at all. It will cut faster than the top plate at 15-20°. The way t get a more blunt top plate is less angle where you're at 45° to the bar go more towards 35° if you want to measure the angle.
 

Nuzzy

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I'll look at mine tomorrow and write ya back. Mine too have the nicks on the tie straps, I'm just thinkin' that the nicks on my chains are further up the chain and closer to the gullet instead of so far back. My chains are being run in very sandy country that has high winds. The bark of the pinyon pines has a lot of grit in it, and yet I'm getting good life between resharpening touch-ups. They last as long as my regular round filed chains.


So sounds like you're sharpeing the inside side plate more bluntly than 45, which would definitely hold up better in dirtier wood. That makes sense.




Nothing wrong with that at all. It will cut faster than the top plate at 15-20°. The way t get a more blunt top plate is less angle where you're at 45° to the bar go more towards 35° if you want to measure the angle.


Everywhere says start with a new chain when trying to learn. Of course I don't have a new chain... :meh: I do have a few chains from the logging outfit guy who sold me my latest saw that were done on his square grinder, and his top plate angles were in that 30-35° range.

So is the answer just that you just can't have both a 45 side plate and a 15-20 top plate...?
 

mdavlee

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Yeah pretty much. You'll have to steepen up that outside angle to make the side plate blunter on the inside angle to get the top plate back towards 20°. I don't use a 45° angle on mine. I'll try to get a few pictures up for you. This was a good cutting work chain.

 

ft. churchill

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Darn it, I almost forgot about ya. I just went out and checked with a flashlight out in the garage, and my top plate angle are steeper than 10 to 15 degrees, but not as steep as yours. The marks on my tie plates are about centerline of the rivet to the rear edge of the tie strap rivet, so they are somewhat further forward of yours. My chain has about the same amount of cutter length as your chain in your photo. My buddy grinds square ground only and he did up some chains of mine that had hit nails, wire, etc. that were imbedded in the trunks of trees. So I have no idea what starting o a new chain would be like.
Busy day today, did two muffler mods, one a 346ne and 385xp. Welded up deflectors similar to 288 deflectors.
The 346 also got a new top shroud, kill switch, and choke lever. The 385 got an oiler rebuild/cleaning.
 

Nuzzy

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Darn it, I almost forgot about ya. I just went out and checked with a flashlight out in the garage, and my top plate angle are steeper than 10 to 15 degrees, but not as steep as yours. The marks on my tie plates are about centerline of the rivet to the rear edge of the tie strap rivet, so they are somewhat further forward of yours. My chain has about the same amount of cutter length as your chain in your photo. My buddy grinds square ground only and he did up some chains of mine that had hit nails, wire, etc. that were imbedded in the trunks of trees. So I have no idea what starting o a new chain would be like.
Busy day today, did two muffler mods, one a 346ne and 385xp. Welded up deflectors similar to 288 deflectors.
The 346 also got a new top shroud, kill switch, and choke lever. The 385 got an oiler rebuild/cleaning.



Perfect. Thanks! :cheers:


At least I know I'm not totally crazy. I'll play around with the angles and figure out what'll work best for what I want. Maybe run this chain as is, sharpen the other differently, and go play in some wood.
 

Jimmy in NC

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I am a square novice and don't get to cut much. What I've done is get some 20" loops and try different angles on three or four loops while labeling them. Then when I get to cut, I try them all. Figure which ones I like and which ones I don't. I did manage to get angles too blunt moving in the direction of stay sharp according to the Madsen's guide. Now to go back and start dialing in for what I like. Square is so variable that what I like in my wood.....Mike may hate. Keep playing with it....more you learn the more you realize you don't know.
 
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mdavlee

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Darn it, I almost forgot about ya. I just went out and checked with a flashlight out in the garage, and my top plate angle are steeper than 10 to 15 degrees, but not as steep as yours. The marks on my tie plates are about centerline of the rivet to the rear edge of the tie strap rivet, so they are somewhat further forward of yours. My chain has about the same amount of cutter length as your chain in your photo. My buddy grinds square ground only and he did up some chains of mine that had hit nails, wire, etc. that were imbedded in the trunks of trees. So I have no idea what starting o a new chain would be like.
Busy day today, did two muffler mods, one a 346ne and 385xp. Welded up deflectors similar to 288 deflectors.
The 346 also got a new top shroud, kill switch, and choke lever. The 385 got an oiler rebuild/cleaning.

That will stay sharp longer than what I do. I like the fast cutting of those angles. When I'm using square it's falling or bucking wood before it gets skidded.
 

CR888

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l think for early stages of square filing the op's cutter looks ok...not perfect but pretty good and should be commended for so..Anyway all l want to suggest is if you get your inside side top plate angle correct at lets say 45* your other angles should be correct too. So you don't really need to focus on all those angles in diagrams as they take care of themselves if you get 2 of them wright.(if any of this makes sense). l like how your side plate angle is a near perfect 90* from bar. Your going about learning this technique the right way imo. Understanding how the cutter works and what changes affect what is going to help you. Nice clear pics 2...
 

DiggersDad

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Alright, what am I missing... So, I've read all the threads I could, watched the vids I could, and read through all Madsen's literature on this. So here's what I got...

[Using double bevel chisel file]


Suggested angles from Madsen's:




I understand the side of the cutter does the brunt of work, so I start with the Inside Side Plate and go for 45°





Then I line up the small part of the file so my Outside Side Plate is 85-90°. Now Madsen's says the Inside Top Plate should be 40-50°, but that angle seems to me to be a function of the Outside Side Plate angle and it's relationship with the physical file. In other words, if I rotate the file to give a more blunt Inside Top Plate angle, my side plate will change... That said, with the 85-90 side plate, I do feel the top is roughly where it should be.




I aim the file (as I've read) so that I'm just touching the tie strap





So, now I'm in a locked position. I've set the file in three axis: 1) 45° to the bar when looking from above for my Inside Side angle; 2) angled downward so my file corner lines up with the outside corner of the cutter and down to grazing the tie strap; and 3) rotated so the Outside Side plate gets its 85-90°. Now what does this leave me...

An Outside Top Plate angle close to 30-35°, which is certainly not the 15-20° I've read about.







I've been looking at this, trying to figure out how to change things so that top plate angle will lesson, but the only way I can think of involves changing the 45° of the inside side plate.


:retarded: :notsure:

I've been experimenting with this myself for awhile. Good pics and explanation, good questions. Rep for ya.

Your angles look good to me. I had a devil of a time making them come out that good, looks like you're already ahead of me.

DD
 

trx250r180

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is that file 6 sided or 4 ? it looks like 4 on my pc but i may be wrong ,this one i use make it fairly easy to sharpen
square file 2 054.jpgsquare file 2 048.jpgfile square 001.jpgfiles 004.jpg
 

Nuzzy

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l think for early stages of square filing the op's cutter looks ok...not perfect but pretty good and should be commended for so..Anyway all l want to suggest is if you get your inside side top plate angle correct at lets say 45* your other angles should be correct too. So you don't really need to focus on all those angles in diagrams as they take care of themselves if you get 2 of them wright.(if any of this makes sense). l like how your side plate angle is a near perfect 90* from bar. Your going about learning this technique the right way imo. Understanding how the cutter works and what changes affect what is going to help you. Nice clear pics 2...



Thank you. And yes, that makes perfect sense.




I've been experimenting with this myself for awhile. Good pics and explanation, good questions. Rep for ya.

Your angles look good to me. I had a devil of a time making them come out that good, looks like you're already ahead of me.

DD



All I can say is, I'm meticulous by nature. Sometimes it's good, other times not so much... :laughing:
 

mdavlee

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When I was learning some very knowledgeable guys helped me along. Lay the file on the tie strap first an then bring it up into the corner. F you've got a little forward lean for the side plate then that will be a good cutting chain. On new chain yo should be touching the strap about at the front of the rivet.
 

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